Today was a day that captured a lot of the good that can happen in religion, and Christianity specifically. Both came from expected and unexpected sources. I started out the day with a visit to Saint More Catholic Church, it is one of the easiest for me to visit, since they have a lot of service times and are really close to my house. This was good since I'd be spending time with family later.
The church is beautiful, it is surrounded by trees and has an interesting design, it's like a pyramid almost and has a school right next to it. The building was packed and I was lucky to find a seat in the back. When I arrived the Hallelujahs began, confession and the readings...which were the same as Saturday based around carrying the cross for Jesus and giving ones own desires up. What I noticed this time though in the Matthew reading were the similarities to Eastern thought.
Depending on the interpretation, and I'll be taking that Eastern philosophy interpretation in this post. Jesus wanted the apostles to put their own desires aside and to be as he was. It was similar to the Buddha and the giving up of possessions. He also calls Peter Satan when Peter says he wants him to stay around. Whether Jesus saw the Crucifixion coming or not this line is good at establishing that his teachings were bigger than him as well as his actions. Which makes sense why his followers would see him as God later. How Satan was used here too was as the ego, don't remind me of the things that make me want to live for me...let me live for others, which you should do too. Here God is like Enlightenment, complete understanding and perfect action.
Of course this was taken literal, and though I don't agree with that interpretation if it brings you to good action in the world than do it. If you take inspiration from an undefined outside source, than I am happy for you...if it leads you to do good. Which it clearly has done for quite a few people throughout time and up to current day.
Late I would head to City Church in Sandy which would have a different theme that is universal while also emphasizing the second interpretation of Jesus as a deity.
Now that the blog is back, time to explore some of the issues that the visits bring up. Issues usually being the theme of the Mass or service and analyzing the thesis statement of the sermon. Before I get into that though. Blessed Sacrament really is a beautiful church, I arrived early today for the church visit so explored the grounds again and found more Mary statues, one of which was in a garden. The day was beautiful as well and not too hot.
When I arrived at the Mass I found the parking lot pretty crowded. Inside the church it was as well. It was largely made up of older folks with one or two families present before the music began. The Mass also started ten minutes later because two of the ministers didn't show, which annoyed the priest who was doing the sermon understandably.
We all stood, there was a song about being the City of God, the "Peace be with you," "and with your spirit." Call and response...the readings which were based around Jesus asking his followers to deny themselves in order to be like him and to follow him. I'll get into this more in the analyzing of the sermon.
The sermon was based around why Jesus is needed. That humanity's sin at the beginning was infinite so needed an infinite sacrifice to atone. The priest followed it up on why there was the Sacrament of Atonement and the Sacraments in order so that we can be saved through God.
How can any finite action go on infinite? This seems to be the basis of original sin, and part of why I don't believe it. Is it right to punish a child because one of his parents was a murder? This is basically the actions we see take place in the Bible and the psychology behind the atonement.
The idea of the atonement that I also have is how it allows a get out of jail free card. You could be a psychopath or serial killer, but if you accept Jesus in the end, you are okay. The saving through grace and belief really doesn't involve much work if it is taken just at it's word.
I am at the point now, where humans overall and throughout history have done a lot of terrible things to each other. They have also done good too. I don't see how paradise or Hell is really just either way and that the legitimate problems of murder and rape aren't really dealt with...
The final thing is on the denying oneself for God. What is being denied? For many Christian, Muslim, Jewish and other communities...this means if you are Gay, Lesbian, Transgender, Queer or otherwise, denying your love for your partner. This isn't healthy and is in no way good. It has real effects on people and is being done for reasons that can only be justified by claiming the supernatural (of which there is always the possibility of - The Supernatural - but no concrete evidence). This can also happen in regards to women in leadership roles as if she is a good leader and would be able to lead, is kept from it by men quoting scripture and asking her to deny her pride. How is this just or good? These are a few of my big issues with the denying self issue and how it is tied to sin.
Sin I guess is the final thing...again, I don't think humans are good or bad. We're very much a mixture...but sin assumes we were once perfect or that a perfect human has existed. I haven't seen that. Even the character of Jesus as he's written isn't perfect. He gets angry, he's violent and not to the killers and rapists...but to merchants. He also only ever calls a women by their name once. He certainly did a lot of good, and was most likely a mad sage who may or may not have been divine, if in fact the divine exists. For me, where I am inspired the most from Christianity isn't in the mythos of Original Sin, Virgin Birth, the Resurrection or even Jesus's miracles...for me the inspiration is in the actions that we can see as good, in the words that were good. Giving to the poor, turning the other cheek and the times the stories actually inspire the followers to do good. The Desmond Tutu's of the world like my friends who are in the priesthood in the Episcopal and Catholic Church, etc. and my friends and family who I see living that action.
I can't believe because of the issues surrounding the unproven Supernatural as well as some of the things that I don't think are ethical (treatment of Gays and women in some sects), but I do still find inspiration in some of the stories, especially when they are taken as stories and not reasons to persecute or as fact...and for the times when it does inspire equality and fighting for the persecuted and the poor.
What a great service there was today. First, it was a pretty full Saturday, many more people where there than one of the Holy Days. The age range was all over the place, though there were many older folks. The music was the thing that stood out the most, besides the sermon which I will get into later. The music was sung by three women and was one of the best traditional church music I have heard, especially when they sang the psalm, "The Lord is my Shepard," Which was also the theme of the Mass.
The readings leading up to the sermon were about Peter and how Jesus is the messiah and is there for those who seek him. Later was the reading about Jesus making allusions to being the Shepard and the Pharisees being thieves in the fold.
What was taken from the readings by the priest was that Jesus is there for those who need him. He didn't take the tact of seeing outsiders and unbelievers as thieves in the fold, which was how an Evangelical church called Blue Sky I went to years ago interpreted it. This fit in with the loving compassionate Jesus that honestly is the one I wish we would see more of in the world.
What I mean by this is what each person believes God or Jesus wants is different...just like the Bible. Each person interprets it in their own way because there isn't a physical entity that can be judged. We're going off the words of the past and the words of priests and pastors. From that though can come great inspiration for good and for evil.
My hope is that the inspiration for good that I have seen it (and what Jesus the man means to me) becomes prevalent and not the Dominionist Jesus who persecutes Gays, Lesbians, Bisexuals and Transgender folks and keeps women unequal. Like any idea or like any living person today, how we choose to use that inspiration is entirely in our hands.
My turning up at the Cathedral of Madeleine was not planned. I'd originally only planned to explore around Temple Street, but soon found that the time I arrived at the Cathedral was right when Mass was supposed to start. Little did I know that I would be attending a memorial mass.
One thing I noticed on the way is that the Catholic Diocese headquarters in Utah are right next to the Cathedral, as well as the Samaritan society. Like the other Catholic Churches I visited they like the Episocopals are active helping and feeding the homeless in their areas and Salt Lake City.
The mass this time was quite and reflective. There was no music and everything was said or chanted. On one side of the isle were family members of the departed, and on the other side visitors. I realized it was a memorial mass when the prayers were being said before communion. One of the prayers expressed, "To honor this individual with this Mass."
Like any memorial, there was that quite sadness and passion...one had only to pay attention to see where people were in their thoughts. It was during this time that as a stranger, the most I could give was my silence and honoring the person in the mass.
After communion a few of the people stayed after to reflect in the silence. As I made my way out I thought of the person who had touched the lives present here today and their relationship to this place and congregation.
My experience at the Cathedral of the Madeleine was troubling in some of the best and worst ways possible...it kind of encapsulated everything I like and dislike about religion which made of a fascinating experience. For a bit of context there is currently a Western Conference on Canon Law being hosted in Salt Lake City so there were tons of Priests and Bishops at the Cathedral...most were from the west coast but one had come over from Lebanon. Because of this there was almost a conference and concert feel about it at the beginning, mostly because the Bishop who looked like Richard Dawkins thanked people at the beginning and the end, and pointed out how great the music was. This was one of the things that took me out, it made something that was supposed to be transcendent and greater than self like any other public event where there are a lot of important people present.
To the Bishops credit though, his sermon was wonderful, and the reading was the one where Jesus first tells his followers to say the Lord's Prayer. This prayer is a call that our words don't matter that God already knows everything anyway, so it is about how we choose to live...what we do with the time that given to us. This sermon nailed the theme of service and sacrifice of Lent and was great.
The sad thing was during the service people were taking pictures...yep, it strikes me as the kind of thing you don't do...I mean a Church service is supposed to be more important than a concert or a movie right? Folks were taking a picture of him during the service. I took pictures, but I waited to before and after...if I were up there speaking I wouldn't what lights blinking in my face or people taking pictures of the place I'm preaching...isn't the content of the words more important than the beauty of the place?
For positives that brought me into it...the music...the choir was angelic, and that would not be an understatement. They were all ages and all the songs were sung in latin, giving it an even greater feeling to it. The psalms also were beautifully sung and focused on important things like justice.
The most important thing that took me out of it were two things - one was how people aren't welcome to camp outside the Church (there are a fair amount of homeless in Salt Lake City) and the other was the homeless man behind me. Here was where he'd come for rest and to be safe...I hope when he eventually got kicked out that he had somewhere to go...the church provided a place for him during the service and with the Samaritan Society next store...but the church itself was not a permanent sanctuary. Shouldn't a house of God be that? What can we do to help? What can I do to serve?
This was the first time since my graduation trip to Italy that I have been to a service in another language. In both instances there things that stood out, and pros and cons in the experience like any religious service. Suffice to say, I'm glad I came with my girlfriend who understands at least some Vietnamese and was able to translate some of it for me. Also, the fact that it was a Catholic Mass meant that the Mass schedule of events was the same, just with some more things thrown in.
When we first arrived it was the Adoration of the Eucharist. So there were continuous chants and prayers the moment we entered the church. It was good for reflection before the Mass began, and I noticed the association of gold with the Eucharist since the Priest got a golden shawl after adoration and being given the Eucharist to return to it's chamber.
Then the Mass began, there were the readings, one of which was from Ephesians and after the priest spoke. It was his first time speaking at Saint Joseph's Catholic Church, and he shared a story from Vietnam about a Mother who's children grew up in a poor house and were able to get out and go to College and afterwords fell out of touch with their Mom. From here he argued that it is by accepting Christ into our lives that we can become Christlike and unselfish and remember those, unlike the children who had forgotten their mother. The story reminded me of the importance of family and communication and what religion can sometimes do for people.
The Mass was much longer than an English Mass, just like the Italian Mass I saw in Florence. I think this is true for most things. Most English Church services are very quick, not being any more than an hour. The only exceptions I can think of are the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons who are known for having longer services. I wonder what the reason is behind English language Christian Church services being so short...
One of the things I noticed as well was how conservative it all felt. There wasn't the passion behind the parts of the Mass there is at the Newman Center and other Catholic services I have attended, and the folks who gave the Eucharist to the congregation were all older gentlemen in suits, unlike the diversity of gender and age I've witnessed in most Catholic Services in the States.
It was a great service and great for reflection, I do hope someday I'll be able to understand more services in other languages, as I was able to when I was in China.
All Saint's Day is a day the Saint's are commemorated and remembered, predominantly in the Catholic tradition. It is a day that Catholic's are also supposed to attend. Going into this visit, I didn't really know what to expect. The Church is in a small conservative catholic town but I've been surprised in my visits before, the catholic churches I've known also tend to be just as likely to have more liberal leaning priests as conservative leaning priests. So there is that.
The music at the service was beautiful and overall it was a really wonderful service. The one thing I didn't like though was how narrow the prayer was. Usually there are at least a few mentions of people outside the church and wishing them the best beyond them being recruited to the faith. The service today failed to get beyond the community of the faithful at all, beyond bringing more people in.
The sermon itself referenced Pope Francis's sermon on this day which was polar opposite. Francis said that there are Saints among us and in our lives and that we may know them. This broad interpretation of Sainthood was spot on in my opinion since it captured how anyone can live virtuously and inspire others to good. Anyone can be selfish, just as anyone can be loving...how we choose to live along those lines is usually mixed but we can do what we can to get it as close as possible to living with love and virtue towards our fellow human beings. This is to me what makes a Saint. The example of Christ is used a lot, which I think is understandable, but I also see good people who would also be saints in the non-religious variety or of other faiths. Francis's speech captured that I think.
Francis's speech was also a contrast to the priest who was distant and formal, and how historically politics can be a big reason for making people saints...not so much the actions they lived in their lives. Though, sometimes it can be a mixture of both.
Overall it was a great visit and a day of contrasts. To end, who do you consider a Saint and why? What makes a Saint in your opinion?
After a long day at work and a car limited to the Issaquah/Bellevue area I decided to do an impromptu to Church visit. First thing I got to say is, if I had a lot of free time and transportation I would probably be visiting a lot of Catholic Churches for this blog. Most have daily mass at 9am and they are in almost every city or town I've been in (can't say the same for a lot of other denominations and religions I've visited). Each experience is different too, some are more conservative congregations, while others are more liberal...the aesthetics also vary depending on the Church.I've been to Saint Joseph's before and it is close to my work so I decided to drop in since I wouldn't miss too much of the service.
As for the substance of the Mass, today was a good day that actually tied into my own philosophy and depending on how you do it can be very practical. The moral of the sermon was if you become like a child and depend on God then you will find peace and grow. Luke was used as the example and the reading was about how a widow was persistent for a corrupt judge to rule in her favor and how he eventually relented because of her persistence, the moral was "If a corrupt person will relent, what about someone Good like God?"
I saw how this could be applied to "The Way" in Taoism or even Buddhism. I haven't found any good evidence that anyone has physically met Jesus post death, or anyone who has died...but from when people describe prayer to me and the times I've prayed in the past it is a reflective process. It forces you to look at yourself and desires. From that place it is much easier to get rid of Ego, whether God is the reason or seeking Enlightenment or following "The Way" the end product can make you unselfish, and if you seek that place like a child or the idea of child (Innocence) than you will find some part of it and grow.
That is what I got out of the experience of Mass today and the sermon.
Also, the new responses the congregation does are a bit hard to remember. What was once "And also with you" when the priest says "Peace be with you." Is now "And with your spirit." Which also seems a bit more vague...the definitions of spirit(s) range all over the place versus "and you" which is very clearly talking about the person and wishing them well.
That's all on that, tomorrow I plan on visiting some more Churches and continuing the adventure.
Saqsayhuaman, here was a site that had been torn apart for the building of cathedrals and the fighting of the Incas after the conquest of Cuzco. It was here the Inca resisted for a month before all the underground tunnels were finally discovered by the Spanish. In a way it became a symbol of resistance. Like most of the other places we'd been to this place also had religion signifigant to the Inca. The first was the "Giant Head" of the Ancestor. It looked like it had one eye and represented wisdom and the masters who had come before. It was really cool. On the sides were carved chairs in which the priests could sit.
After Puma told us this about the place we played a quick game of hide and seek (the area is huge) before making our way to the area that once an artificial lake. To get there we had to pass through the darkest cave I have ever gone through.
After leaving the cave and entering the bright day once more it felt amazing. It was waking up almost since the darkness had been so confining. It was a pretty neat experience.
Once we got the artificial lake we walked over it to the main area. In the main area there were llamas grazing and a volcanic altar across from the terraces where the llamas were eating. The area was huge and it was here we learned about all the stones that had been taken from the site to build the cathedrals. It was interesting how the old religion became building blocks for the new here and how even those buildings in the context of colonialism could not destroy the amazingness of the site. As much as has been lost, all the more remains strong and expansive.
It was here Puma told us the story of how Pope John Paul II had come here and given a speech and placed a cross on the site that had been struck by lightning later on due to metal below the surface. He also talked about how the cross had angered the elders who saw it infringing upon a place sacred to them and their ancestors.
As part of Saqsayhuaman a large White Jesus Christ was built. By Rebi, Puma and others it has been nicknamed "The Sexy Women" another name for the site. It is beautiful, which is where I think the name might come from. The Jesus and the history of this site show the tension that very much still exists between Christianity and the native religions in the area...and given the history, it understandably will probably never fully go away.
My visit to the Monastery of St. Catherine of Siena would be one of my favorite visits during the trip, at least in hindsight of the blog (and also being one of the most disturbing too). It was here that the face of colonialism was most obvious (one of the walls that makes up the Monastery used to be a place where Inca Women were kept who had taken vows of chastity).
First, the Monastery is very beautiful. It is a collection of art that is almost Zen like in its simplicity in capturing the major events of the Gospel.
Second, The Monastery itself has almost ceased to be one. It now functions as a museum showing how the members of Catherine's order lived. The immediate thing that became obvious was power dynamic. Much like the cloistered Inca women were beholden to the Inca Priests, so to the nuns. It was here that there was tiny confessional tied to the wall so the nuns would never see a man or the man responsible for their souls and confession. The abbess may have had a lot of power within the Monastery, but the lowliest of Priest would still wield more power than her.
In both cases it is complete control of a women's sexuality by men and seeing that them losing that will somehow lessen them. Purity becomes a form of control so great that an entire segment of a populace is cut off from the opposite sex.
This tangent is actually tied into a story that we were told the day before by Puma. There was a woman who wanted to become a medicine women, but the village elders rejected her. Keep in mind, before this they had done nothing as she suffered from an abusive husband too. They laughed her away and it was only when she'd faced the darkness and contemplated killing herself that she had the experience of the Spirits of the Mountains talking to her and teaching her, she came back and confronted the elders and today she is now respected as a medicine women in the surrounding communities.
Saint Catherine also shows power within the Church as a teacher, even if she could never speak for Christ the way a Priest could during Mass. I guess for her era she fought for power as best she could. One does not become famous sitting down, a person has to be active and fighting in some way, even if it is by removing oneself from the game the way the Taoist and Buddhist Masters did, just like many of the Catholic Saints.
The final bit is about Tupac II the last Inca King. It was today that I went to the museum and learned about his resistance against the Mita slave system that the Spanish had committed against the native population. His aims were extreme, but sadly I don't know what other alternatives were really available to a native man who had no power within Spanish society. Well, what does this have to do with Saint Catherine Monastery? Well the time the Church could have brought about peace rather than backing the oppressors, tehy back the oppressors. Saint Catherine Monastery gave a blessed Jesus figurine to clear the souls of the men who brutally executed Tupac, and the local Dies labeled Tupac and heretic and let that excite the mob leading to his execution.
The Jesus on the Cross that was given to the exectuionors now sits in the Regional Museum of Cuzco. The Monastery out of guilt refused to take it back and so it as people realized what Tupac II had been trying to do to change an unjust system (even if it was in an immoral way). People, and the Monastery at least realized they'd been immoral doing nothing and allowing the slavery of the native populace to continue leading to Tupac's revolution in the first place.
It was at this time that the rest of the group took off on the Inca Trail. I was last minute as far as my going to Peru and to do the Inca Trail you have to sign up at least a month ahead of time. In total about 500 are allowed on the trail a day. This was not a bad thing, as I would learn later, I was in no condition to do the trail. I had not trained on Mt. Rainer like the rest of the group had. Thankfully though, 2 days later I would do my own easeier version of the trail with one of our guides. Before that time though, I had a day and a half in Cuzco.
With a half day in Cuzco (and it being a bit too late to visit the museums) I decided to visit one of the Cathedrals in the Square. I would happen to do Companion of Christ Cathedral. The Cathedral itself is beautiful inside, but very Spanish. All the Saints and figures from the Gospel are made to look like white Spanish shepherds or medieval style mothers. It fit for the time period when it was built, and also due to the fact that it was the Spanish conquest that brought over Catholicism in the first place.
What role does Companion of Christ Cathedral play today? Well part of what it does is provide schooling for the homeless kids on the street in Cuzco, and also provides a market for the local people to present their wares. It is very much a part of the Cuzco community.
Later on I'll get into more of the darker side of what was done, and also the fact that everything I write about here was what I saw or read about it in the museums. There are no doubt things at all the holy sites (be it Pre-Incan, Incan, or Catholic) that I don't know about.
The Ceremony
After the Sacred Valley we went to our guides hometown of Chinchero. Chinchero is about to go through some major changes. A US Company recently got the rites to build an International Airport there so this town where there are not many tourists is about to change drastically. There is definitely a lot of fear in relation to this considering the economy is largely agricultural and the land that the airport will be built on was once farmland that was bought from the farmers.
It was in Chinchero where our guide and another one of the member's of his people did a Shaman Ceremony to the group.
It was on altar that was made that I noticed the diversity of identity in Peru. There was a Peruvian Jesus, next to 3 Inca Gods as well as a Saint figure too and parts of animals. It reminded me of how the present and past are so easily connected together, and how it takes a lot to completely do away with the old ways, which means at least some traditions will always be around. Just as the ceremony we did has existed in one form or another even before the Incas.
The Ceremony itself involved tobacco, being pressed and blown on the chest and head and a plant that was burned to add an incense. Incense tends to be a pretty common religious practice I realize now in hindsight.
What the ceremony did, if anything was energize me. On the lead up to it I was still recovering from jet lag so was walking between wakefulness and sleep pretty deeply. The ceremony centered me since I think partially I didn't know what to expect.
Pachamama Rock
After the ceremony I checked into members of the group before all of us headed to Pachamama Rock. On the journey there we passed an Inca Ruin where a Church had been built on top of it. When I returned to Cuzco I would see even more of this. Much of what were important Inca sites in cities now only exist as parts of a wall to a monastery or cathedral.
First I should mention, Pachamama means Earth Mother.The rock is seen as holding the heartbeat of the world. Whether this is true or not, the cave in the center is really peaceful and I was able to meditate there for a while.
On top of the rock I talked to family and did one last meditation, though I think I'm still very much learning how to do so...my mind at this point has not learned to completely settle into silence. There are always more thoughts to think.
There is something to be said for solitude. Being away from the world in a like-minded community focused on living a life of devotion and virtue while surrounded by nature and beautiful architecture. This was one of the first thing I noticed at Mount Angel Abbey and Seminary.
The abbey is located in a tiny town in Oregon called Mount Angel. The church is the center of the town and surrounding it are small specialty shops, restaurants and pubs. It's like something out of Chesterton Novel on where he believed those who best expressed religion and understood the need for it where to be found. There was another side to it too of course, whether it was the tea party flag (which the mentality of the tea party itself ignore the paying Caesar what is due Caesar (taxes) and paying God was is due God (way one lives).
The Abbey is about 10 minutes away from the downtown and when one enters it one passes up a large road in which there are paintings of the stations of the cross. Next is the home where people go on retreats and above it is the Church itself.
The Church and Abbey overlook the valley and my is a quite a sight. Farmland, forest and mountains stretch below while near the bench could be found wild roses growing.
That day I would witness the ritual of the monk life. At 8 o'clock the monks arrived and sang songs of praise while doing two readings. The monks were Benedictine and had long black robes. There were old men and also a few younger men. After the chants they took positions all around the Church. The abbot with one of the elders stayed near the Madonna where they had all done the "Hail Mary" prayer and the others moved about continuing their work.
It was experiencing a snapshot in their lives and was a wonderful experience. I know that I too enjoy the contemplative life and it is a huge part of me (as well as the importance of living virtue). One of the things I need to never forget though, is that to live good I need to
Contemplation and living simply are always things that have appealed to me. I think it's partially due to my aspergurs and the fact that I do get overwhelmed in big groups sometimes or places with lots of noise and over-stimulation. What I've found for me though is that finding that balance between being within society and around people and finding time for myself to think about the big questions and contemplate the unknown or what I'm learning has helped me to grow.
My experience of the abbey reminded me of that and all the questions and unknowns that I think about, while at the same reminding me as I sat quietly, of the gift that silence can bring.
Have you ever had an overdue thing you've wanted to do, but it's taken forever to come together? This discussion was one of those moments for me. For at least a year now, this is a discussion I've been meaning to have. Father Raphael is a friend and one of the priests at the Catholic Newman Center at the University of Washington. One of his majors is philosophy and when he did a forum against Referendum 71 against Civil Unions becoming legal in Washington I came ready to ask questions and to hopefully help him see how going against Referendum 71 was unjust (since Gay couples deserve the respect and dignity straight couples receive). That day I learned a lot about Catholicism and made a friend (though neither of us was able to convince the other that our position was correct).
After that day we pretty much had a rain check to meet up to talk philosophy at some point in the future. This was a rain check that finally came together today.
The discussion began with a prayer for illumination to find truth.
It began with questions. When it comes to philosophy, asking questions is one of the few things I'm good at. Being a philosopher is something that I wouldn't call myself, because that takes a lot of work and I have not done all the work to be one. If anything, I'm simply a person with questions seeking answers and truth (and stories).
I asked first about the crucifixion and the issue of an evil act being done, and how it could be good? From there what we found was it was the reaction and intent behind the one experiencing the evil act (forgiveness, dying for sins) which came around not because of the act but in answer to the act. This was a distinction that we tackled first. The conclusion which ended being, just that: "Good can come out of Evil, but not because of the Evil."
We then discussed the New and Old Testament a bit. Old Testament Father versus Jesus (Genocide done by or in name of Father, and forgiveness and non-murderous nature of Jesus versus the Eternal Torment or Reward Jesus offered in the text versus the Old Testament not explicitly talking about Heaven or Hell).
I brought up the question, "How can infinite reward or punishment exist for finite acts and life?
He answered that because of God's infinite goodness, a sin against Him, though finite from our perspective, takes on an infinite quality from an absolute perspective, since it is a sin against an infinite being.
We then discussed how we got to where we are (in relationship to religion). Father Raphael was raised Christian, but didn't become Catholic till much later in his life. It was when he was in college he halfway submitted to God on possibly pursuing the Priesthood (after completed PHD would be open to it) and eventually how the seed grew until he accepted it, even though it had never been an idea before. (I had asked how do you know when God is talking versus the mind?)
I asked because...I have tested prayer before, and I did have an experience that made me a Theist (Agnostic Theist in the end), so I was wondering if there was a better way. Since I would like to take each religion on the basis of their claims and test the claims (Both Paul and Buddha said to test something before putting belief in it).
We talked a little bit about how all faiths have similar core values but differ in their Thesis's on what it means to be a member (which was an argument against relativism I thought - which there are many since that philosophy doesn't hold).
I told my faith journey about being born and raised Mormon till I was 11, and then raised Unitarian Universalist after that. The searching that is a such a huge part of UUism is something that I still carry with me to this day.
We then talked about relationship (in regards to God) since his sermon the day before had referenced the darkness that many believers have felt (Saint Tereza of the Flower felt near the end of her life that if she went with her feelings she would be an atheist) and how God is looking for true friendship (people who stick through the darkness of separation - in romantic relationship - when the strong romantic feelings aren't there all the time or are hard to feel). It was a great conversation. I don't know any couple who has not been in that place of drought within romantic relationship, and I know both my girlfriend and I have felt it at times too.
Eventually it went too what I believe now. Right now, I think there is a lot I'm figuring out. I do believe in living love and respect for all though (which is constant growth and long way to go), and continuing to seek truth.
I mentioned that part of the test for me in regards to religion is if two of my mentors who are an amazing gay couple would be accepted...since I've seen the goodness their relationship is built on, and the good that has come out of it.
Father Raphael brought up that that is coming from my own definition of virtue and good (Versus the Abrahamic faiths which are by Revelation (God speaking). We talked about on that (I think it was earlier) what Revelation means.
"If humans are imperfect, how does Revelation work?"
"God makes certain word is recorded as he intends it."
Father Raphael also brought up Priests who don't follow Church teachings (not following what the Bible says in regards to gays having to live celebate, or being full of hate as many Protestant groups act towards gays). He mentioned that gays who do try to do this are often isolated from within their own communities (which is true and not right, but I think the Church in regards to this has not been good to the gay community for those who do not want to believers and want to be treated with respect as those who are).
A conversation for another day would be questions about the Catholic Church (of which I have a lot of) in regards to transparency and the past, as well as gender issues in relationship to men's and women's role and Church leadership, as well as church verse state issues, but those are a conversation for another day. It was a great conversation and I am lucky to have had it and the friendship that helped facilitate it.
